Can Chanting Make you a Better Person? Gemma Perry's Scientific Research on Mantra!

Psychology researcher, Gemma Perry, shares her doctoral research and personal experience with the use of chant and mantra sound yoga therapies for the body and mind. Her innovative research experiments explore the effects of chanting mantra by creating a sense of community, connection and a deeper relationship with self while motivating the practitioner to seek harmony by pursuing their potential.

Gemma Perry is a meditation and yoga teacher currently doing her PhD in the Department of Psychology at Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia. Gemma investigates the effects of chanting meditations on emotional and cognitive processes. Her interests are primarily in how the chanting of specific sounds can decrease psychological and physiological stress, increase social connection, and ultimately expand states of awareness.

 Anandra had the great privilege to have talked with Gemma Perry. The interview video below was for our Mantras for Peace: A Wisdom Gathering project.*

Exploring Mystical States Through Mantras: A Conversation with Anandra & Gemma Perry

Anandra:
Hey, hello, everyone, and welcome to our Mantras for Peace talk with the wonderful researcher and mantra lover, Gemma Perry.
We’re so happy to have you with us today, especially since you just mentioned that this week has been packed with interviews because your research has been published in the Australian mainstream media.
So, woohoo for the power of Om! Can you tell us a bit about who you are and what you do so that we can tune in with you?

Gemma:
Thank you for having me. I’m Gemma, and I’ve been researching mantra meditation in the world of science for quite a while now. Before that, I was simply practicing mantra myself, which is how I got involved in all of this. I’m currently doing my PhD in mantra and have previously completed my honors and master’s in psychology.

Anandra:
In an alternate universe, I could be you, and maybe you could be me. That’s fascinating and exciting! I love that you’re doing a PhD in mantra.
Before we dive into topics like “Can mantra make you a better person?” and other Western scientific perspectives, I think the question begs to be asked: What got you started in mantra and researching it?

Gemma:
When I say I’m researching mantra, people often respond, “I didn’t know you could do a PhD in mantra!” And, well, there wasn’t one before—but there is now.

About 12 years ago, I was diagnosed with severe depression. At the time, I was taking yoga classes, and my teacher recommended trying chanting. I did, and it became a significant part of my healing.

When I had the opportunity to study something for my honors in psychology, I chose music therapy because it was the closest field to chanting. When asked what I wanted to research, I said mantra, and my supervisors were incredibly supportive.
Now, we even have another researcher in our lab studying chanting, so it’s growing into a little community, which is very exciting.

Anandra:
That’s so exciting! Last year, during the Mantras for Peace Wisdom Gathering, I interviewed Dr. Hemanth Bhargav, the Chief Scientist at the National Institute of Mental Health in Bangalore, India. I think I connected you with him, right?

They’re also exploring the science of mantra for their research. It’s so thrilling to see this field growing because we both know the practical benefits of mantra. Hearing it verified by science adds another layer of validation and understanding. Please always feel free to reach out to me or our community for help with surveys or anything you need.

Gemma:
Thank you, and I really appreciate your help with the last one.

Anandra:
Oh, it was just a tiny contribution, but I’m glad to help.

Gemma:
You know, while I believe yoga and mantra are inherently experimental practices, science provides a great platform to communicate these benefits to people who might not have encountered chanting otherwise.

Anandra:
Looking back at your journey from severe depression 12 years ago to where you are now, what do you think happened to you through chanting?

Gemma:
That’s a great question. I sometimes wish I had a “control condition” of myself to compare to!

There are so many variables—diet changes, location, life circumstances—but I’ll share what stands out. Initially, when I started chanting, it felt incredibly strange. It wasn’t like the workshops I now lead, where I start with gentle humming or explain the parasympathetic nervous system. My first experience involved walking into a room with a fire, orange robes, and the full traditional setup.

It felt exotic and out of my depth, but I stayed—and kept coming back. Over time, I explored other traditions, visiting Buddhist and Hindu temples, and found myself feeling more connected to both myself and others.

When I reached a point where I wasn’t severely depressed, mantra went beyond therapeutic benefits. It helped me become more aware of my thought processes and brought experiences that I could integrate into my daily life. While it can be used therapeutically, it also has benefits that extend beyond that.

Anandra:
That resonates deeply with my experience and what I’ve observed in students. Mantra can serve as a life jacket during challenging times, helping people move from survival to deeper personal transformation.

Given today’s context—August 13, 2020, mid-pandemic, with much of the world physically distant—do you have insights on the social element of chanting, especially in non-physical forms?

Gemma:
That’s a fascinating question, particularly since all our research has shifted online. While we don’t have specific data yet, the idea of connecting through chanting is powerful.

In some traditions, people feel connected to their community just by chanting the same mantra, knowing others around the world are doing the same. Individually, chanting can help relax the nervous system, fostering connection and better relationships with oneself—even in isolation.

Anandra:
Yes, it’s empowering to know that this practice is within us—requiring no special tools or external resources. It’s exciting to see research exploring how chanting fulfills our need for community and connection.

Gemma:
Exactly. While we don’t have data on mantra specifically, there is evidence from studies on virtual choirs. Even without seeing one another, participants felt socially connected by contributing to a shared goal. It’s a concept we hope to explore further with mantra.

Anandra:
That was okay. Well, yeah, I guess we’ll wait and see what comes out of that, but we are unquestionably at the beginning of a whole new world with how we are connecting to community and meeting those needs.

It’s going to be really interesting to see how things develop and what strategies work better than others. You know?

Gemma:
Yeah.

Anandra:
Fun. Wow. One of the questions I wanted to ask you about your research is whether there’s something you’ve come across that really surprised you, or maybe even contradicted your expectations. Of course, I know you’ve tried not to have preconceived notions, but we know that’s impossible.

So, yeah, I’d love to know if there’s anything that has just blown your mind.

Gemma:
Yeah. Well, in science, we always have hypotheses, and often, at the end, we’re surprised to find that they don’t match the data.

One of the things that I’ve found surprising—or that I’m really excited about—is from a recent survey we did. We asked people about their experiences with chanting, specifically mystical states. We didn’t explicitly ask, “Have you had a mystical state?” Instead, we used 30 questions that define things like loss of boundaries or loss of time and space. Then we analyzed the data to figure it out.

About 60% of the people who reported doing chanting practices said they experienced these extreme alterations in consciousness. And that was across various traditions—Hindu, Buddhist, and even some developed by a composer named Tacitina. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with that one.

So, yeah, these mystical experiences seem to be a common occurrence across traditions, which is really exciting.

Anandra:
Wow. That’s really cool. There are so many ways you could dive deeper into that research, right? Like, comparing mystical states and even the process of developing a questionnaire to define them—that just delights me.

Gemma:
Yeah. We actually used a scientifically valid and reliable questionnaire that’s often used in psychedelic research. It’s fascinating to see that chanting can have such a profound effect on consciousness.

Anandra:
Wow. Can you shed some light on that? I know psychedelics are becoming more mainstream, and chanting and mantras have also spread globally. Are there any correlations between the states induced by psychedelics and those initiated by sound, or is that outside your area?

Gemma:
Yeah, I mean, they have found similarities in neurology between psychedelic states and certain meditative or mystical states. While they haven’t specifically studied chanting in this context, they’ve looked at meditation practices.

To reach these states, people use various methods—rituals, fasting, sleep deprivation, and so on. Chanting is just one way. Neurologically, there are regions of the brain related to time and space that deactivate, creating a sense of boundary loss.

Research by Andrew Newberg into altered states of consciousness explores this in detail. For example, he studied the differences in brain activity between someone mechanically performing Islamic prayer and someone doing it with full surrender to God.

Anandra:
Oh, interesting. Wow. That’s fascinating. Personally, I’d rather chant mantras than starve myself or lose sleep, but that’s just me.

Gemma:
Yeah, I always say, "I’m pretty sure you can just sing."

Anandra:
Right? And still have cookies.

Gemma:
Exactly.

Anandra:
And a full night’s sleep. I love it.

I’m really excited about your work, and I hope our readers and listeners follow what you’re doing. It’s so valuable to have someone connecting these dots and sharing this knowledge.

To share a bit about myself—I’ve had a lifetime of mystical experiences that I don’t talk about much because it’s personal, and I’ve worried people might think I’m crazy. In my late teens, I experimented with psychedelics, and the mystical states I’ve experienced with sound vibrations feel very similar.

I’ve always hoped to meet someone who could explain what’s happening in the brain during these states. When you align variables like rhythm, harmony, enunciation, and thought, it opens a window into profound states of union that don’t require external substances to trigger.

Maybe this is our natural state if we learn how to access it. More of that, please. Who wouldn’t want to live in a world where we feel an embodied sense of unity—not just with each other but with all of life?

Gemma:
Yeah, absolutely. Something else we found in the data is that people who experience these mystical states also score higher on altruism.

Anandra:
Yeah.

Gemma:
And so, we can't say that the mystical state makes people higher on altruism or that they’re more altruistic because they're experiencing a mystical state, but it’s an interesting combination. Once you have an experience of feeling connected to everything and everyone, you’re likely to be a nicer person. You think, “That person is connected to me,” so you treat them as part of yourself. It definitely brings in a lot more connection and kindness.

Anandra:
So the moral of the story—and your tagline for the ABC video, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, right?—was something like, “Can chanting make you a better person?” And your preliminary answer seems to be yes.

Gemma:
Yeah. Actually, I’ve used that in some of my talks, but I don’t think it’s a headline yet.

Anandra:
It’s on your YouTube.

Gemma:
Is it? Something like “Can chanting make you a kinder person?”

Anandra:
Right. It makes me think about the Mantras for Peace project, which, as you know, is an invitation for people to chant a universal mantra for peace—hopefully every day for at least five minutes for 108 days. Knowing that hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of people, especially within the South Asian Hindu community, already do this regularly as a prayer for peace, what’s your take on that? What do you think about the potential of subtle activism, specifically chanting for peace?

Gemma:
I think there are many levels to that. When you're chanting for peace or the greater good, the intention becomes a big part of it, almost like a compassion meditation, which can be very powerful. But even without that intention, if you're simply chanting, you might become more relaxed, let go of ruminative thinking, and stumble into a mystical experience. That, in turn, could make you more altruistic. The intention behind the chanting, though, adds a powerful dimension.

Anandra:
So what I’m hearing—and tell me if I’m on the right track—is that someone new to mantra practice might initially benefit from a drop in cortisol levels, reducing stress and enabling them to feel more relaxed and safe. From there, they might open up to aspects of the mystical state, which could correlate with increased altruism. It’s like layers. But you can’t access those deeper layers if you're stressed.

Gemma:
I’m not sure if it’s linear like that. As I was describing my process, a lot of it came from community—chanting with others, hearing others, being in synchrony. That naturally helps us feel more connected and less stressed. Oxytocin, the so-called “love hormone,” increases as cortisol decreases, and vice versa. It’s hard to pin down a universal process; it varies for each individual.

Anandra:
It’s like a chicken-and-egg situation, but even without a definitive conclusion, understanding these cycles and correlations is helpful. Especially if someone is stressed or desperate—whatever works, even if it’s just 1%.

Gemma:
Absolutely. And with the global pandemic, as terrible as it’s been for many, it has made people more open to chanting. People are desperate, and when you're desperate, you might try something that seems weird if it works. Suffering often motivates us to explore these practices.

Anandra:
True. Necessity is the mother of invention. People figure out what they need to do to feel better. A moment of gratitude for those of us who have the privilege and safety to pursue this research and share these resources. That’s altruism in action.

Anandra:
There’s another area I wanted to explore: the intersection of cultural appropriation and the scientific method. Yogic practices, like chanting and pranayama, have been tested for thousands of years within their indigenous context. Then Western scientists come in, study these methods, and claim their findings. What’s your perspective on this dynamic?

Gemma:
There are challenges with Western science, but also challenges without it. For example, diagnostic criteria for mental disorders are often criticized, but without them, where would we be? We need to balance these two worlds and be mindful of what Western science can and cannot measure. Practices like chanting might not always fit into the Western scientific paradigm, but that doesn’t make them untrue. However, if they can’t be measured scientifically, let’s not call it science. We need to distinguish between science, spirituality, and pseudoscience.

Anandra:
That’s such an important distinction, especially now, with the proliferation of misinformation and quack research. Do you see this as one of your passion points?

Gemma:
Absolutely. I’ve learned from my ignorance over the years. Now, when I read something, I look into the author’s background, their area of expertise, and their sources. This is especially important in yoga, where many claim to know ancient practices without proper study. We have to stay humble and critical in sharing these traditions.

Anandra:
And spelling the mantras correctly—90% of the books don’t!

Gemma:
Exactly. And it’s not just books. There’s an old prank from the 1950s about a “spaghetti crop.” It was presented in such a believable way that people started asking for spaghetti seeds. It’s a great example of how information can be manipulated.

Anandra:
Right. And losing the ability to distinguish between personal experiences, measurable science, and pseudoscience is concerning. It’s a humbling reminder to stay critical and discerning.

Gemma:
Definitely. These distinctions are crucial. We can’t always fit spiritual experiences into scientific frameworks, and that’s okay. What’s important is to be honest about what belongs where.

Gemma:
I have a lot of folders.

Anandra:
Like, a folder titled Quack Research—look it up when you need a laugh.

Gemma:
You know, there's some research that could actually be really good, but it hasn’t been properly done. It hasn’t been peer-reviewed or published in journals, so we can’t really talk about it in Western science yet. But yeah, it’s important.

Anandra:
I think the more detail we can have in understanding what we’re talking about, the better. For example, you could say, “An initial study was done with 12 people, and this is what it showed.” That gives a framework—this is a start, but it’s by no means proof.

Hopefully, for those still with us in this interview, the takeaway is to know what you’re looking at and where it falls, so you can be clear if you’re sharing that information.

Gemma:
Exactly. It doesn’t mean we can’t talk about spirituality or spiritual experiences. We’ve measured mystical states and asked people questions, then put that into statistics. But it’s still subjective experience going into science. Psychology, for example, deals with people’s minds—it’s not black and white.

Anandra:
And you have to qualify it.

Gemma:
Yes, exactly.

Anandra:
It’s about understanding what you’re talking about and putting it in the right box. It’s not that hard, is it?

Gemma:
No, it shouldn’t be.

Anandra:
And research—do your research on the people you’re listening to. A lot of people say, “Do your research,” but for some, that just means reading memes. Memes can be great, but they’re not sources you can cite.

YouTube is another example. Sure, there’s valuable information on YouTube, but you can’t cite it in your research.

Gemma:
Exactly. For the record, YouTube is not a place to do your research. However, if you hear something interesting on YouTube or a podcast, don’t immediately share it with everyone. Look at where that information came from.

Check multiple sources or ask a trusted teacher, “Is this book or author reliable?” Look at qualifications—not necessarily formal ones, but consider what the person has been doing. Were they a heart surgeon who suddenly became a meditation teacher overnight? That context matters.

And while intuition is valuable, it can also be distorted by our own biases.

Anandra:
That’s such a timely reminder. We need to be careful about what we’re consuming and sharing.

Before we wrap up, do you have any favorite pseudoscience memes or claims about mantra or chanting that you’d like to officially debunk?

Gemma:
I can’t think of a favorite.

Anandra:
There are so many, right?

Gemma:
Yes, and I don’t want to be the police.

Anandra:
Of course.

Gemma:
I’ve been criticized a lot on LinkedIn recently—like for spelling “Om” a certain way. People get upset about these things. They also question how I bridge ancient traditions and Western science. I’ve found that my research is offensive to some people, but I just thank them for their feedback and move on.

I deeply respect these traditions, but we have a limited paradigm within Western science. We do our best to communicate the benefits of these practices to today’s generation.

Anandra:
In some circles, the phrase “stay in your lane” is popular. It means defining what you do and staying clear about it. When you’re doing something new, criticism is inevitable.

What I appreciate about you is that you approach this work with humility. That’s the mark of a true scientist. The more refined your intelligence, the more you admit what you don’t know.

Gemma:
Absolutely. The more research I do, the more I realize how much I don’t know.

Anandra:
Exactly. Mantra is such a big topic—it touches on trauma, brain science, psychology, yoga, metaphysics—so much. But for those of us who love it, we practice because it feels good and helps us get through the day.

Gemma:
Yes, absolutely.

Anandra:
So, for verifiable research, visit gemmapary.om. (That was a joke—you’re the “policewoman” of scientific research.) Anything else you’d like to add about the power of mantra for peace?

Gemma:
Mantra can be therapeutic and help in times of crisis. It can also take us beyond states of health to altered states of consciousness. Choose your path and the right teachers.

Anandra:
Beautiful. Thank you so much.

Gemma:
Thank you.

Learn more about Gemma Perry's awesome work at: www.gemmaperryom.com

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